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PhD vs DCLS

  • 1.  PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-08-2017 23:15

    Fellow laboratorians, I think many of us now know that we have at least two schools that are offering DCLS (Doctorate in Clinical Laboratory Science) program now. I wanted to know from those who want to advance your degree whether they would choose DCLS or PhD for their advanced degree? What would be the reasons behind your selection? Let's discuss about it on this great forum. I am sure many people are looking for answer this question. Hopefully we will have many people's opinion on this so that the advanced degree aspirants can decide.

    Thanks



    ------------------------------
    Drona Pandeya, M.S., MLS (ASCP)CM
    ------------------------------
    2019 JAM


  • 2.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-09-2017 06:03
    In making a decision about what advanced degree to pursue, a component is what is your career plan?

     Advanced degree choices may not be mutually exclusive but some choices fit better with specific career aspirations.  The DCLS is a new , terminal degree, career advancement option. In my opinion, the DCLS is a strong credential in the clinical environment.

    Other doctoral degrees include the Ed.D., which is definitely focused on education, and  the Ph.D,. which is traditionally more bench research focused.

    In combination with the MLS(ASCP) platform, a wide variety of advanced degree choices provide good backgrounds for teaching.




    ------------------------------
    Mary L. Turgeon, Ed.D., MLS(ASCP)

    --


    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 3.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-10-2017 03:47
    I thank you for time in putting your opinion in this discussion forum.

    Drona

    ------------------------------
    Drona Pandeya, M.S., MLS (ASCP)CM
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 4.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-10-2017 09:12
    HI everyone,

    A Great question! And, as always the answer is "it depends."  :-)

    In my opinion, our profession needs us all to consider advanced degrees which helps us to advance our profession. So, before I begin, I believe ANY of the routes to ANY of the advanced degrees offered will be beneficial for you personally and for the overall profession.

    My slant on this issue:

    1) If you are planning on an academic career that involved research in a tenure-track slot, I highly recommend that you seek the Ph.D. The Ph.D. is an invaluable journey that helps you learn the environment of pure research. It also helps you to become efficient in learning how to write as a scientific researcher and to "think like a Ph.D." while also helping to educate you about how to write competitive research grants. While not mutually exclusive, conducting research to publish is a not the same as writing a competitive grant for funding. WE NEED MLS faculty and the shortages are becoming amplified as we have retirements more and more often.

    2) The Ed.D and other types of doctorates is a strong degree for education, and perhaps research if one is mentored for the research and grant component. As I tell all of my students though, be sure this degree and others like it (Dr.PH., DHA, etc.) will be accepted formally and "informally" at the university you see to work at. Some degrees other than the Ph.D. will not be as accepted as the Ph.D. This is not always written in policy so be sure to seek the advice of those who work in the institution that are responsible for tenure track advancement. If you are not on tenure track, then its not as critical.

    3) The DCLS is a degree to advance our profession in the clinical environment. It will be very similar to the other types of clinical doctorates like the PharmD or the DPT. Again, this degree is brand new so academic administrators may not know how to place it in the realm of tenure track. So, if you are planning on an academic career with tenure, I would be sure to seek advice at the institution you are planning to work at. The DCLS will be amazing as a clinical degree in my opinion. My hopes are that it allows one of us in our profession to be on equal footing in the clinical environment.

    Having said all of this, each of these degrees will work with the MLT academic environment (community colleges) as well as with institutions in which faculty are not seeking tenure (other 2y and 4y institutions). I'm sure that there are exceptions but I would definitely seek that information out as you make plans for your career.

    I hope more of our new professionals and seasoned veterans will see any and all degrees of advanced nature. In my opinion, we NEED more advance degree holders in our profession to help us advance our profession. This includes law degrees and others.

    Good luck,
    Doc R

    ------------------------------
    Rodney E. Rohde, PhD, MS, SV, SM(ASCP) CMMBCM
    TACLS President (2015-17)

    Chair & Professor, Clinical Laboratory Science (CLS)
    Associate Dean for Research, College of Health Professions

    Texas State University
    CLS, HPB 363 (Dean, HPB 201H)
    601 University Drive
    San Marcos, TX 78666-4616
    512-245-3300 (Dean);512-245-2562 (CLS);512-245-7860 (fax)
    Email: rrohde@txstate.edu


    Twitter: @RodneyRohde https://twitter.com/RodneyRohde
    @ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rodney_Rohde/

    Texas State: http://rodneyerohde.wp.txstate.edu/
    ACC website: http://www.austincc.edu/rohde
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 5.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-10-2017 16:39
    Dr. Rohde,
    I really appreciate your detailed opinion on this discussion forum. You made this so much clear. Your comments will be very helpful to the lab professionals who are seeking the advanced degree.

    Thank you much
    Drona

    ------------------------------
    Drona Pandeya, M.S., MLS (ASCP)CM
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 6.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-09-2017 15:04
    Greetings,

    My 2 cents. I lean towards PhD for now because the industry as a whole recognizes it more readily then DCLS which is fairly new. However, in an effort to continue to professionalize our profession we should probably lean collectively towards DCLS. It'll take some time as minds have to change and many of us have pursued or are currently pursuing a PhD which then exempts us from getting a DCLS, unless folks got enough energy to do another doctorate. (More power to them cause I'm exhausted lol). However, in my opinion new school techs, should pursue a DCLS going forward.

    Sincerely,

    ------------------------------
    Diane Price Banks
    Program director
    Bronx Community College
    Bronx NY
    (718) 289-5536
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 7.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-10-2017 03:48
    Thank you for your opinion Ms. Price.
    Drona

    ------------------------------
    Drona Pandeya, M.S., MLS (ASCP)CM
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 8.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-10-2017 16:54
    I totally agree with everyone. I did my undergraduate in MLS, ceritified, and worked in micro labs for three years before going to grad school. Four/Five years ago, when I was applying for PhD programs, there were not a whole lot of choices directly related to MLS. So, I chose to go to basic biomedical sciences specializing in immunology. I didn't regret going into the traditional PhD route, which to my opinion, also opens up more avenues regarding cellular molecular levels of basic science. My goal, when I applied to grad schools and when I chose my dissertation lab, was pretty much to apply my knowledge I've acquired during grad school into the clinical diagnostic areas. Now that I'm about to be done with school, I've started looking for clinical post doctorate fellowship positions to transition back into the clinical labs. I agree with Dr. Freeman's take on hopefully having a DCLS/PhD programs in the future. It'll give prospective students ample opportunities of skillsets both in the DCLS and PhD routes.

    ------------------------------
    Phyu Thwe, MLS (ASCP)CM,
    PhD Candidate (concentration in immuno-metabolism)
    University of Vermont
    Burlington, VT 05405
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 9.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-09-2017 22:55
    Good discussion, Dronya,  I have actually thought about having a DCLS/PhD option for our students, sort of like the MD/PhD.  Maybe in the future...  However, I agree with Mary that it really depends on your career goals on which degree you get.  The goal of the DCLS to have individuals at the Practitioner level, definitely clinical emphasis., focusing on improving clinical outcomes.   However, I also see these individuals in academia as well.  We currently have one DCLS student who already has their PhD, I am sure there will be others.

    ------------------------------
    Vicki Freeman
    Chair and Professor
    University of Texas Medical Branch
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 10.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-10-2017 03:50
    Thank you for your time Dr. Freeman. I really liked the idea of DCLS/PHD ladder. I think we need more discussions on this thread so that people will know and explore more about the DCLS program and compare it with PhD.

    Thanks
    Drona

    ------------------------------
    Drona Pandeya, M.S., MLS (ASCP)CM
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 11.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-10-2017 17:29

    I would like to add to this discussion by saying that I believe the first point to understand is the difference between an advanced practice doctorate degree and a PhD.  Examples of advanced practice doctorates include DCLS, DCN, DNP, AuD, OTD, to name a few. There are also entry level practice doctorates i.e. Doctorate in Physical Therapy (DPT) and PharmD. Advanced practice doctorate programs usually require certification and/or licensure as a practicing professional. For the DCLS certification as a Medical Laboratory Scientist is required.  

    All advanced practice clinical doctorates include clinical expertise as a component. This is not usually required in a research doctorate (PhD).  The curriculum emphasis is also different.  For advanced practice doctorate, research is a critical component with about 30%-40% of the curriculum related to independent research project, and about 60% -70% advanced science and clinical practice. With a PhD, the curriculum emphasis is higher for the research component (>50%). The remainder are required or elective courses in science and/or other related areas of study.

    The  goal of a DCLS program it to prepare practicing certified medical laboratory scientists for advanced practice in clinical laboratory science including roles involving  participation, collaboration and consultation on inter-professional healthcare teams and with patients, advanced knowledge in science, leadership, management and research.

    PhD vs DCLS?  This is a self-reflective question based on your career goals. What are your career goals and how will the DCLS or a PhD help you achieve those career goals?
    Nadine



    ------------------------------
    Nadine Fydryszewski
    Region II Director
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 12.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 06-25-2018 17:54
    Dr. Nadine Fydryszewski,
    I thank you for your detailed information. I want to 
    congratulate you and your school for graduating a DCLS candidate. I know there is a heated discussion going on DCLS program now. Does Rutgers university plan to move to PHD/DCLS track too ?


    Thanks
    Drona

    ------------------------------
    Drona Pandeya, M.S., MLS (ASCP)CM
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 13.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 06-26-2018 09:03

    Nadine,

    Thank you for your clear explanation of the topic on PhD vs DCLS.  I get this question often regarding "what graduate degree should I get" after I work in the clinical setting. It's a very complex question with no wrong answer. Your final statement sums it up quite well - it really comes down to a reflective, personal decision about one's goals with whatever graduate degree they choose to pursue.

    By the way, I'll be on the ASCLS presentation panel in Chicago regarding "Career paths" for our professionals. I will be discussing "how one becomes a professor" in our profession. If you are interested in this topic, then please come check it out. My plan is to produce a handout that might be useful on this topic of differing graduate degrees and careers.

    See you in Chicago!

    RR



    ------------------------------
    Rodney E. Rohde, PhD, MS, SV, SM(ASCP) CMMBCM, FACSc
    TACLS Past President (2017-19); Global Fellow

    Chair & Professor, Clinical Laboratory Science (CLS)
    Associate Dean for Research, College of Health Professions

    Texas State University
    CLS, HPB 363 (Dean, HPB 201H)
    601 University Drive
    San Marcos, TX 78666-4616
    512-245-3300 (Dean);512-245-2562 (CLS);512-245-7860 (fax)
    Email: rrohde@txstate.edu


    Twitter: @RodneyRohde https://twitter.com/RodneyRohde
    @ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rodney_Rohde/

    Texas State: http://rodneyerohde.wp.txstate.edu/
    ACC website: http://www.austincc.edu/rohde
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 14.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 06-27-2018 16:29
    Nadine:

    Great summation of the differences. I have  seen many laboratorians online comparing the DCLS to a PhD while others compare it to a PharmD. Both are incorrect of  course.  The DCLS is an advanced practice degree. As you mention entry level practice doctorates like DPT and PharmD we forget that the MD is a an entry level doctorate as well.  it is  not a terminal academic degree. One thing I would like is to see: CMS accept the DCLS as qualification for a clinical lab director. One reason for requiring a pathologist (or a scientific doctorate in some cases/states) is that they can provide clinical consultation and speak "doctor to doctor." I dare say the DCLS will be eminently qualified to consult on test selection and interpretation as well as help to clarify diagnostic dilemmas that clinicians encounter..


    Glen

    ------------------------------
    Glen McDaniel
    Atlanta GA
    (404) 629-1164
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 15.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-11-2017 12:14
    Hi, Dr. Freeman, if the DCLS/PhD is likely to be an option in the future, do you have any idea about the timeline to implement such a program? Do you have suggestions for students currently about to graduate (like myself) who are interested in the DCLS/PhD and have desires to further their education in years to come (after gaining MLS work experiences)? Would this option be offered on a student-by-student basis?

    ------------------------------
    Joseph Locklear
    --
    Chapel Hill NC
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 16.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-11-2017 14:03
    Hello Dr. Fydryszewski, do you think that pursuing one degree over the other (DCLS vs. PhD) limits one's career options? For example, if I am interested in clinical practice and consulting, but also in becoming a clinical laboratory director, would the DCLS allow me to complete a postdoc fellowship in, say, clinical chemistry or clinical microbiology to further specialize?

    Also, could you speak a little more about the particular job market of the DCLS vs. PhD? Most sources say that the role of DCLS is to work on a diagnostic team, but what exactly does this mean? How do we address issues such as salary, board certification, and demonstrating the need of the DCLS to other clinical institutions such as hospitals, physician offices, reference labs, etc. so that they have a better understanding of our role and usefulness?

    Thank you so much!

    ------------------------------
    Joseph Locklear
    --
    Chapel Hill NC
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 17.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 9 days ago
    Regarding pursuing subspecialty fellowships with a DCLS, I know that at this time those with a DCLS are not eligible to apply for CPEP fellowships for clinical microbiology. I don't know about clinical chemistry fellowships.

    ------------------------------
    Rebekah M. Martin, PhD, MLS(ASCP)CM
    Medical Microbiology Fellow
    ARUP Laboratories
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 18.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-14-2017 21:17
    Joseph,
    If you would like to contact Dr. Freeman, Here is her contact CLS Faculty & Staff Contacts | Clinical Laboratory Sciences | UTMB Health.

    Thanks

    ------------------------------
    Drona Pandeya, M.S., MLS (ASCP)CM
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 19.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 06-27-2018 11:04
    I absolutely love the idea of a PhD/DCLS and would have opted for that if it was an option . The lack of a PhD/DCLS option is what had me turn my focus to pursuing a PhD in chemistry (I start this August) and complete a fellowship in clinical chemistry that focuses on all disciplines of the medical laboratory. I also thought about pursuing a DCLS for sometime, but as Dr.Rhode mentioned it is a personal decision that the decider must really reflect on and be honest about. There were other factors that had me pursue a PhD in chemistry rather than the DCLS. Furthermore, there are postdoctoral tracks closely related to the MLS profession such as clinical chemistry, molecular diagnostics, microbiology, and bioanalytical chemistry to name a few.

    I Believe we are also in need of PhD MLS that work in R&D of diagnostics. It would be great to also see in the future dual-degree programs that offer a bio/chem-MLS degree programs to ease the transition of MLS professionals into research intensive graduate natural sciences programs.


    ------------------------------
    Louis Gonzalez ,MLS(ASCP)CM
    Graduate Student
    Purdue University
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 20.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 06-28-2018 09:32
    ​East Carolina University in Greenville, NC offers a dual degree in Biology and CLS in addition to its BS in Clinical (Medical) Laboratory Science.  The dual-degree option is a five-year program, intended for just what you describe - MLS students who wish to move into graduate science programs.

    ------------------------------
    Guyla Evans, PhD, MLS(ASCP)CM, SC(ASCP)CM
    Clinical Assistant Professor
    East Carolina University
    Tarboro NC
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 21.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-04-2019 20:16
    Edited by Elina Esmaeilzadeh Gharehdaghi 01-13-2019 02:48
    Hello Drona. Thank you for making this discussion forum. I am very interested in DCLS program. Do you think the DCLS degree holders can continue as post doctorate research fellow to do research on bench? I come up with this question because I know this is a doctorate degree and I have seen many Physicians who can get Post doctorate position after finishing their MD degree and continue to do research at some research centers. Please let me know your opinion?




    ------------------------------
    Elina Esmaeilzadeh Gharehdaghi
    Lab manager (Research Associate)
    UT Southwestern Medical Center
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 22.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-05-2019 10:16
    Drona,
    This is a great and important question for the DCLS. I would hope that ASCLS, as well as the DCLS offering institutions, would support And promote an option of a PostDoc related to research.

    Our profession needs the DCLS to pursue not only Diagnostic Management Teams But Also Research lines in the Medical and academic setting.
    R

    ------------------------------
    Rodney E. Rohde, PhD, MS, SV, SM(ASCP) CMMBCM, FACSc
    TACLS Past President (2017-19); Global Fellow & Honorary Professor of International Studies

    Chair & Professor, Clinical Laboratory Science (CLS)
    Associate Dean for Research, College of Health Professions

    Texas State University
    CLS, HPB 363 (Dean, HPB 201H)
    601 University Drive
    San Marcos, TX 78666-4616
    512-245-3300 (Dean);512-245-2562 (CLS);512-245-7860 (fax)
    Email: rrohde@txstate.edu


    Twitter: @RodneyRohde https://twitter.com/RodneyRohde
    @ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rodney_Rohde/

    Texas State: http://rodneyerohde.wp.txstate.edu/
    ACC website: http://www.austincc.edu/rohde
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 23.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-05-2019 12:15
    Edited by Elina Esmaeilzadeh Gharehdaghi 01-13-2019 12:39
    Thank you Dr. Rohde for bringing up your opinion. To talk about my personal experience as a degree holder in both clinical laboratory science and master of science in medical nanotechnology, I can say that clinical laboratory science provided me with a powerful background both in medical science and lab research skills. I think degree holders in this field are very good to handle research and bring  up new research idea. I think many good research in diagnosis area can be handled with DCLS holders since they will have a great knowledge in various types of diagnostic methods.



    ------------------------------
    Elina Esmaeilzadeh Gharehdaghi
    Lab manager (Research Associate)
    UT Southwestern Medical Center
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 24.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-05-2019 13:25
    I ABSOLUTELY agree! Future DCLS professionals and other CLS doctoral / masters level degree holders need to be aware of the critical role that our medical laboratory background can provide to healthcare regarding the impact of research on clinical / medical decisions. For example, these individuals Should play a significant role in the R&D of diagnostic tools and platforms, in accepting academic roles in MLS/MLT programs that train future professionals (major shortages in these roles), as well as playing a role in Diagnostic Management Teams (DMTs) to both assist in the most accurate/best laboratory test to order AND the interpretation of those tests.

    When I became an ASCLS member around 2003 or so, after a decade in a public health career where I was surrounded by PhD, MD, DVM, and others, I was keenly aware that the medical laboratory profession was lacking in these types of degree holders. Dr. Shirlyn McKenzie and Dr. Mary Ann McLane (Past Presidents of ASCLS) encouraged me (and others through their mentoring) to pursue a PhD. It was one of the best decisions I made in my career.

    While we will always continue to prepare excellent bachelors and masters level medical laboratory "bench level professionals / supervisors," we must also look forward in the role that WE SHOULD embrace in research and DMT's. Dr. Brandy Gunsolus is a great example of the impact that a DCLS and/or PhD (or other doctoral prepared medical laboratory professional) can have in filling those gaps in knowledge between the lab and physician, AND, the gap between research and the advancement of medicine.

    Happy 2019!

    ------------------------------
    Rodney E. Rohde, PhD, MS, SV, SM(ASCP) CMMBCM, FACSc
    TACLS Past President (2017-19); Global Fellow & Honorary Professor of International Studies

    Chair & Professor, Clinical Laboratory Science (CLS)
    Associate Dean for Research, College of Health Professions

    Texas State University
    CLS, HPB 363 (Dean, HPB 201H)
    601 University Drive
    San Marcos, TX 78666-4616
    512-245-3300 (Dean);512-245-2562 (CLS);512-245-7860 (fax)
    Email: rrohde@txstate.edu


    Twitter: @RodneyRohde https://twitter.com/RodneyRohde
    @ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rodney_Rohde/

    Texas State: http://rodneyerohde.wp.txstate.edu/
    ACC website: http://www.austincc.edu/rohde
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 25.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-05-2019 13:41
    To add to this, there is one or two clinical chemistry post-doctoral Fellowships (that I know of) that explicitly state that DCLS holders will be considered for the program under the condition that they qualify to sit for the clinical chemist exam. It is possible to qualify for post-doctoral fellowships in clinical microbiology or some at the CDC but that would be at the discretion of the program coordinators.

    I do agree that we obtain a great set of skills and knowledge that is translatable to research, especially research in medical sciences and diagnostic testing development. One of the major bottle necks to this is the requirement of relevant bench research experience and a publication track which the DCLS does not exactly provide since it is a professional PhD. Most applicants, if not, all the applicants have plenty of relevant bench research experience and a publication track (this includes MDs as they also qualify for some of the programs).

    ------------------------------
    Louis Gonzalez ,MLS(ASCP)CM
    Graduate Student
    Purdue University
    Email: gonza533@purdue.edu
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 26.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-06-2019 15:33
    ​As a laboratory administrator in an integrated health system. that is non-academic, I may be missing the point on this discussion.  As a profession we are in dire need of both the DCLS and PhDs.  I would be totally selfish if I have the future opportunity to hire a DCLS for our system and the focus needs to be on day to day clinical consultation with providers and patients, as well as work on utilization management, total cost of care, etc.  While I agree that it can be important for them to publish and be involved in research, it cannot be the primary focus of the job.  If it is, we have missed an opportunity.  Our profession under publishes and is under involved in research, but the value of the DCLS has to be first and foremost involved in day to day patient care in collaboration or partnership with providers.

    Rick


    ------------------------------
    Rick Panning
    Senior Administrative Director
    HealthPartners
    Bloomington MN
    6512805909
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 27.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-06-2019 15:52
    I think the focus of the two tracks are different. The DCLS is a practice doctorate while the PhD is more academic and may include some specialty practice (e.g. microbiology or clinical chemistry) but is a good foundation for  teaching and research.   The DCLS, as Rick Panning said, is urgently needed in this stage of maturation of the MLS profession. We need laboratorians to do team rounding with other members of the healthcare team, consult on the selection, utilization and interpretation of medical lab tests, use their expertise to solve diagnostic dilemmas.  As they proceed in their practice I see the possibility for research or publishing their findings in certain areas of interest or based on their clinical observation. But I do not see research as a primary or even co-equal activity for the DCLS.

    Maybe y'all are luckier than I am but I am seeing fewer really good, solid, well rounded clinical pathologists who know the clinical laboratory intimately  (instrumentation, processes, menu, quality assurance) and can offer consultation from that broad , current-day background. To my mind that is the strength of the DCLS.

    ------------------------------
    Glen McDaniel
    Atlanta GA
    (404) 629-1164
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 28.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-06-2019 16:16
    I couldn't Agree more without Rick and Glen. If you see my original post that breaks down the PhD, EdD, and DCLS, I describe basically what Rick and Glen discuss regarding the critical need NOW for well rounded clinical DCLS for patient care.

    I only meant that we should allow a career track for a DCLS to pursue a fellowship with research if they deem academia, industry or private research is their ultimate goal. Research skill is paramount to success in those arenas.
    R

    ------------------------------
    Rodney E. Rohde, PhD, MS, SV, SM(ASCP) CMMBCM, FACSc
    TACLS Past President (2017-19); Global Fellow & Honorary Professor of International Studies

    Chair & Professor, Clinical Laboratory Science (CLS)
    Associate Dean for Research, College of Health Professions

    Texas State University
    CLS, HPB 363 (Dean, HPB 201H)
    601 University Drive
    San Marcos, TX 78666-4616
    512-245-3300 (Dean);512-245-2562 (CLS);512-245-7860 (fax)
    Email: rrohde@txstate.edu


    Twitter: @RodneyRohde https://twitter.com/RodneyRohde
    @ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rodney_Rohde/

    Texas State: http://rodneyerohde.wp.txstate.edu/
    ACC website: http://www.austincc.edu/rohde
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 29.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 04-12-2019 23:00
    Hi Dr. Roche,
    I totally agree with you as well as Dr. Freeman that DCLS students should have the option of pursuing an academic/research career. I can speak the incentive of going for DCLS instead of Ph.D. for myself. The major reason was that I can do the program while still keep my job. If I went for PhD, I probably wouldn't be able to maintain the same salary and would be difficult to support myself while still paying off my loans.
    I work in a very academic-oriented hospital and surrounded by a bunch of MD/PhD pathologists. What my service chief had mentioned to me that being apart from the current clinical and medical experiences I already own for several years just for pure research is not very helpful in my career advancement. Although, it did not mean he would not hire me back for a better position, more of that he needed me to support the lab and keep my clinical skills up to date. I think for people who are in the DCLS program or thinking of doing DCLS also wish to have PhD like experience, a supportive environment is very important.  I have already worked with many doctors in a few publications. I also work on many validations, research, and developmental work in my lab supporting the service. I have been sitting in the pathologist consensus to get exposure to how they make a diagnosis based on clinical findings and lab results, and what further studies they think should do to confirm the diagnosis. It is certainly an experience that normal PhD student would not get. However, I would say the PhD program does prepare people very well in problem-solving and independent thinking skills. We have 1 postdoc in our laboratories that we hired to support some contractual research work. We also hired 1 PhD as a technologist supporting in our data analysis as it becomes more sophisticated and complex. Meanwhile, we also have many projects that can offer to people who are interested in research. Because of such academic rich environment, I have also developed more of a PhD-like mindset while I can still build upon my management skills.

    Qi Gao, MLS (ASCP)CM
    DCLS student - UTMB

    ------------------------------
    Qi Gao
    MSKCC
    Rego Park NY
    6319039133
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 30.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-07-2019 01:49

    Dr. R,
    Thank you so much for your valuable comment. I am glad that we are having this discussion so that prospective students of DCLS can decide what route they would like to take.

    Drona Pandeya, MS



    ------------------------------
    Drona Pandeya, M.S., MLS (ASCP)CM
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 31.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-08-2019 11:44
    I would like to throw in my 2¢. I can only speak for myself, but as a DCLS student I do not have interest in pursuing a degree with that heavy of a research focus (research doctorate has >50% of overall credits being research related) and sighed a breath of relief when I discovered the DCLS program.  I think you will find a similar mindset with other DCLS students.  There is much value in the knowledge of laboratory research and all three DCLS programs (UTMB, Rutgers, and soon-to-start Kansas) have students taking various research classes/projects.

    I believe Rick, Glen, and Rodney's comments are spot on.  The DCLS will have a different background than a PhD, but I feel it could be a very appropriate diving board for those that wish to jump into research.

    ------------------------------
    Jennifer Hayes
    Laboratory Director
    Oregon State Hospital
    DCLS Student - UTMB
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 32.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-08-2019 22:46
    Thank you for your valuable comments. I do respect to both researchers and clinicians. I have both degrees and have worked in both diagnostic labs and research lab settings for several years and enjoyed both environments. I am interested in DCLS program but as an international applicant (who holds her MLS degree outside the USA) I have more challenges to know about the DCLS program and the potential careers I can have after getting a degree in this new program. I appreciate this discussion forum that helps me to get more idea about the potential job markets for DCLS program.

    ------------------------------
    Elina Esmaeilzadeh Gharehdaghi
    Lab manager (Research Associate)
    UT Southwestern Medical Center
    Arlington TX
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 33.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-09-2019 15:01
    ​Aloha All,

    My wife is a RN.  Observe how the nursing profession has been progressing -> ADN, BSN, MS APRN/NP, DNP.  Upward, onward, self-contained, and well entrenched in universities.  In Hawaii only UH had the BSN & NP programs but with demand Chaminade & Hawaii Pacific Universities opened BSN programs followed shortly by MS APRN/NP programs and now DNPs.  The model for us has already been paved by the nurses.

    There will always be a place for MDs or PhDs as CLDs but we should have another viable option all our own as a DCLS or PhD.

    I have a BA in Psy & BS in MT (guess that makes me a psycho MT) but I grandfathered in and hold a moderate complexity Clinical Laboratory Director license and run my lab.  I'd love to be a DCLS one day to qualify for high complexity directorship.

    Bottom line -> Higher pay -> Increased undergrad demand/enrollment -> Colleges re-open MT/CLS programs -> Increased political & financial influence -> Colleges recognize our desire for post-grad programs for DCLS/PhDs.

    Hau'oli Makahiki Hou!
    Dean
    Lab Director

    BTW I love how you respond using the title "Doctor!"  :)

    ------------------------------
    Dean Yoshimura
    Laboratory Director
    Waianae Coast Comprehensive Health Center
    Waianae HI
    (808) 697-3648
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 34.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-09-2019 16:37
    Dean:

    Your point is well taken. Not to go too far afield from the DCLS versus PhD topic. However, since you brought up the ADN and BSN, I have to mention that for us laboratorians  we approach entry to the profession differently.  We still accept a varietyh of first degrees and combination of experience to enter the profession and even to receive certification. That might have been logical at one point in our history, but the profession is mature enough to have clear entry -like all other health professions. For Pharmacy it's the PharmD (not a Chemistry degree or anything else) for physical therapy it's the DPT (they even moved on from the Master's degree as entry level).  For us it should be a bachelor's in MLS (MT/MLS level) and an associate degree for MLTs.

    In terms  of career progression, nurses have carved out both specialty certifications as well as advanced practice roles (CRNA, NP etc).  They even have 2 doctorates: DNP and DNSc (practice versus research/teaching). They all start with an RN  however. We have various routes. So you could be a clinical microbiologist or Clinical Chemist with a PhD,  but not be an MLS.

    The last point is that the DCLS is not, to my knowledge, accepted by CLIA as a lab director at this point. This could change, but it's not currently so.

    ------------------------------
    Glen McDaniel
    Atlanta GA
    (404) 629-1164
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 35.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-10-2019 10:00
    Glen, it is my understanding that the DCLS will be eligible to sit for HHS/board approved exams (not sure if they would meet the educational requirements for all).  They will meet the CLIA requirement 493.1443 (3), but would still need the training and supervision piece (if not already attained).
    eCFR - Code of Federal Regulations

    The DCLS would meet the educational requirements, for example, to sit for the ABB HCLD certification.
    HCLD - American Board of Bioanalysis (ABB)


    The DCSL program directors would probably have more concrete data on this.
    Jenn Hayes


    ------------------------------
    Jennifer Hayes
    Laboratory Director
    Oregon State Hospital

    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 36.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-10-2019 12:01
    Jenn:

    Thanks for the additional information and clarification. I cant wait for the first test case to see if  CLIA accepts a DCLS as a Medical Director. They should.

    In my own state of Georgia the Lab Regulations  requirements for a director are  1. Licensed MD, DO or DDS  or 2. PhD in microbiology, biology, chemistry or related field plus  certification/eligible for certification  as Director by an HHS board.  These are interesting times.

    ------------------------------
    Glen McDaniel
    Atlanta GA
    (404) 629-1164
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 37.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-10-2019 13:01
    You all may recall that the issue of what degrees qualify an individual for different position in the laboratory was one of the subjects of the CMS Request for Information in the Spring of 2018. At that time, ASCLS provided written comments to CMS advocating for the DCLS to be viewed as other doctoral degrees under CLIA.

    Preliminary feedback from those comments were shared with CLIAC during their Fall 2018 meeting, prompting the group to form a Workforce Workgroup to sift through the issues in detail and report back to CLIAC for potential recommendations to the Secretary of Health and Human Services in April 2019.

    At the invitation of the CDC, ASCLS has submitted someone to serve on that Workgroup and inform the discussion on this issue.

    I'm not at all sure of real timelines, but ASCLS has clearly communicated its position that a growing number of Doctors of Clinical Laboratory Science will need to be appropriately recognized under CLIA.

    Jim

    ------------------------------
    Jim Flanigan, CAE
    Executive Vice President
    American Society for Clinical Laboratory Science (ASCLS)
    1861 International Drive, #200 McLean, VA 22102
    o: 571-748-3746 | m: 708-359-5721
    jimf@ascls.org | @jimflanigancae
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 38.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-12-2019 08:54
    Jennifer,
         I am also a DCLS student with Rutgers.  I looked closely at the qualifications of the DCLS as a laboratory director.  I interpreted it the same way you did.  I intent to take the HCLD exam when I finish.  Thank you for confirming.

    ------------------------------
    Elizabeth Fisher MLS(ASCP) MHA-HI
    Rutgers DCLS Student
    Vincennes IN
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 39.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-11-2019 18:55
    Glen,

    Ideally, I agree that entry level positions would need a four year degree in Clinical Laboratory Science to work at the technologist level. However, I think that it is currently impractical to implement such requirements due to the lack of four year degree programs. In Florida, which has a population of nearly 21 million people there are only around six colleges/universities that offer four year degree programs in Clinical Laboratory Science. From a practical viewpoint, the post-bachelors certificate programs are going to be around for the foreseeable future and they can offer benefits of their own since candidates have a more diverse undergraduate background. For example, my undergraduate degree was in Molecular Biology & Biotechnology, this was a major asset at the time because molecular techniques were still new to the clinical lab and I was working with Medical Technologists who had never been exposed to lab techniques involving qPCR, FISH, rt-PCR etc.

    ------------------------------
    Chad C. McMillan, M.Sc. MT/MDxT(AAB)
    Aureus Medical Group
    Groveland FL
    352 348-3354
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 40.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-12-2019 08:04
    I don't think I the concern is a post-bac certificate program that is NAACLS accretided. Those post bac programs help bridge the gap between academic science and clinical science that is needed for entrance into the profession. A program recently opened at HCC that does this and does an excellent job at it. Nursing has also used accelerated post bac programs for years now and they are successful at doing so.

    my concern is what Glen was getting at, which revolve around folks with a degree in bio or chem (with no post bac training) getting employeed as a MLS/MLT. Granted, that doesn't happen here in Florida due to our solid licensure Law. However, across the country, individuals with no clinical experience are being hired as MLS or MLT and it is unacceptable.

    I value the knowledge a bio or chem Major has but they are NOT a MLS or MLT without FORMAL training in our profession through an academic program. When we remove the mindset that we can train anyone at the bench to do our jobs and force ourselves to act like a profession with formal entrance routes, there is a better chance for a continual evolution at the bench alongside the evolution of the DCLS in consultative practice.

    ------------------------------
    Kyle Riding
    Assistant Professor
    --
    Celebration FL
    (508) 496-0968
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 41.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-12-2019 10:12
    ​In responding to both Kyle and Chad, I believe it is possible and practical to require that all staff performing laboratory testing in a medical environment be certified as an MLS, MLT, Cytotech or Histology technician.  We are not, unfortunately, a licensure state, but as an employer I (and my colleagues in Minnesota) can and do require certification to be employed in the laboratory.  While a degree in Biology or chemistry can be the beginning of the road toward certification, we do not hire without the appropriate ASCP Board of Registry or AMT certification.  We cannot settle for less.  There is also a nursing shortage and they would never, in a minute, allow someone without the proper credentials and certification to perform patient care.

    I think the DCLS dovetails from this and must start with credentials as an MLS before proceeding to become a DCLS.

    ------------------------------
    Rick Panning
    Senior Administrative Director
    HealthPartners
    Bloomington MN
    6512805909
    ------------------------------

    2019 JAM


  • 42.  RE: PhD vs DCLS

    Posted 01-12-2019 10:28